Legal Analysis, Research, and Writing Transcript
April 29, 2010
Washburn Law Chat Participants
Aïda Alaka
Associate Professor of Law
Lyn Goering
Associate Professor of Law
Jeffrey Jackson
Associate Professor of Law
Tonya Kowalski
Associate Professor of Law
Karla Whitaker
Director of Admissions
Janessa Akin
Assistant Director of Admissions
JanessaAdmissions: Welcome to our Chat! We will begin shortly.
KarlaAdmissions: Thank you for joining the online chat. We are pleased you could be with us today. We are pleased that Washburn Law's Legal Analysis, Research, and Writing Program was ranked 17th among all law schools in the U.S. News and World Report. Please take this opportunity to chat online with four of our legal writing professors.
Student1: Okay. Perhaps we shall. : )
AidaProfessor: We are thrilled you have joined us. What would you like to know?
TonyaProfessor: Welcome, everyone! We are ready for your questions.
LynProfessor: There's no such thing as a dumb question! Fire away!
Student1: How's the weather up there?
TonyaProfessor: Warm, but getting ready to storm.
JeffProfessor: Student1 - Okay, that was close . . .
Student1: Indeed : )
Student1: I don't actually have too many questions, I was just on my email, and the time was right, so I thought I'd lurk...
LynProfessor: Where are you from, Student1?
Student1: Eh, living in Wichita since Jan 09; my wife is from here
Student1: originally from Chicago
LynProfessor: My daughter lives downtown on Van Buren near Union Station!
TonyaProfessor: To our other three participants, are you from Kansas or elsewhere?
Student2: I am originally from Wichita but live in Lawrence right now with my wife finish up my undergrad.
Student3: I currently live near Tacoma, WA but am originally from Kansas.
LynProfessor: Student3, where in Kansas was your home?
TonyaProfessor: Student3, I used to practice law in Washington and Oregon. Are you interested in going back after law school?
Student4: I'm from Overland Park (for the last 6 years)
Student3: I'm not sure where I want to end up after law school.
LynProfessor: Fair enough, Student4! Most of us didn't know, either, when we started law school!
TonyaProfessor: Student3--that's not necessarily a bad thing--it can widen your options.
AidaProfessor: Okay, Who has a question about law school? Or about legal writing?
Student1: hey, i do have a couple of questions, unrelated to the law program, but pertinent to class
LynProfessor: Go for it!!
Student1: 1. laptop - how badly do i need one?
Student1: 2. 2 year program - what would i miss out on?
LynProfessor: Some professors don't allow laptops, but most do, and they can be helpful for most students.
AidaProfessor: Student1, Most students have them. I personally don't allow them in my class, but most professors do.
Student1: It's always hard to tell from the fancy pictures on the brochures : )
Student3: I have looked through the list of suggested of readings on the website. Is there one or two books that you would recommend over the others that might help us prepare for legal reading, writing, and research?
LynProfessor: The two-year program is a challenge, but it can be done, unless you have very specific specialty courses you want to take. Scheduling can be a challenge.
Student4: can you give us an overview of what to expect in legal writing classes for 1Ls?
Student1: ah...that's a good question, citizen covel!
JanessaAdmissions: The link for suggested reading is http://www.washburnlaw.edu/admissions/admitted/index.php#leisure
TonyaProfessor: Re the 2-year program, it can often be a good idea to pause during the summer to take advantage of internships. They provide valuable training and help to build one's resume.
Student1: yeah, those internships was what i was wondering about; guess i'll see how i feel about things
KarlaAdmissions: Student1: Students in the two-year program often get their legal experience through our clinical program or our extensive externship opportunities.
JeffProfessor: Student4. The first semester is generally given over to teaching you legal analysis, and how to think and analyze like a lawyer. The emphasis is on writing objectively, which means that you try to predict what a court would do given the facts and the law, and figure out the strengths and weaknesses of your case. The second semester, we get into persuasive writing and argument, which teaches you to persuade the court to do what's in the best interests of your client. The major writing assignment for the first semester is the memo, and the second semester you write an appellate brief, and argue it.
KarlaAdmissions: Student1: Regarding laptops, most students take their final exams on them, and now the bar exam, at least in Kansas, is also an option on laptop.
Student3: Can you explain how the Expert Learning Program supports the Legal Writing Class?
TonyaProfessor: Re the one or two best readings for this class, we conferred and would recommend "Reading Like a Lawyer" and the chapters in Prof. Schwartz's "Expert Learning" textbook that concern legal writing courses.
Student4: thanks for the info, professor jeff
Student5: Hey everyone. I wanted to ask a question about elective courses that I should take beyond the required courses. I am coming to Washburn from Utah. I am a former general contractor and a construction major. I have a lot of interest in construction and real estate law. What are your suggestions? What classes will best prepare me for the field of construction law?
Student3: Thank you for helping me narrow the field.
TonyaProfessor: You are very welcome, Student3
AidaProfessor: All: Expert learning teaches you to be a self-directed learner. This is important in legal writing courses. Our class is quite time-consuming and requires excellent time-management skills.
JeffProfessor: Student5, take a look at the business and transactional law certificate program. It would be a great place to start. You'll get the basic contracts class as a requirement, but specific classes like real estate transactions would also be some of the classes you would want to take, as well as business associations.
LynProfessor: Student4, Professor Jeff is right on. I would add that "legal writing" can be a bit of a misnomer. LARW stands for Legal Analysis, Research, and Writing, which reflects the emphasis on legal reasoning and research. The writing is the product of the first two, and of course, it's the one thing we can use to offer guidance and feedback.
Student4: Professor Aida, how much time outside of class do you expect your students to spend on their homework?
Student2: I was curious about the application process for law review. I've heard it varies from university to university can you elaborate on how it works at Washburn?
KarlaAdmissions: Student5: There is also a writing requirement for each of our certificate programs.
AidaProfessor: Student4: You should plan on three hours of prep for every hour of class but will expend considerably more time when a major writing assignment is due.
Student4: that's good to know
LynProfessor: Student2, The application process has two prongs. First, a few members are invited onto law journal based solely on the first semester grades. That number has declined over the years. Most students are invited based on a "write-on" competition during the second semester of law school. Part of that process relies on the student's GPA after the first two semesters. But much of the competition depends on the student's writing and analysis skills, as well as legal citation skills, which we cover in LARW.
AidaProfessor: All: One thing that non-lawyers don't always understand is that lawyer are professional writers. Our class is the foundation for your law school career and for your eventual practice.
Student1: "write-on" competition for law journal sounds fun - what are the details?
Student5: Right on. In your opinion is it better for students to try and intern with a firm that is involved in their particular area of interest? How do we best prepare to hit the ground running while improving our stock value with potential employers?
Student2: That is good to know Professor Lyn thanks!
KarlaAdmissions: Recent grads often tell us that their successful bar exam performance is due in large part to the legal writing skills taught here.
Student5: Do any of you have direct experience in the real estate/land use area?
Student2: ProfessorAida, You mentioned major writing assignments earlier, how many of those can we probably expect our first two semesters?
JeffProfessor: Student5 - A wide range of experience is a good thing. One of the best reasons to intern with a firm in the area of practice you are interested in is to find out whether you really want to do that kind of work. I was convinced I wanted to do banking law until I spent a summer at a firm that did that. After that, I became a litigator.
LynProfessor: Student1, The "write-on" compensation consists of a closed research memo, much like the one you will write in the first half of the fall semester. You'll be given four cases, more or less, and a legal problem you'll need to resolve with those (and only those) authorities. You'll write a memo predicting the outcome of the problem, and you'll be required to cite the cases properly. In addition, the write-on competition includes a citation quiz of some kind, to be sure you understand how legal citation supports scholarly writing.
Student5: Good to know
Student1: cool; thanks
LynProfessor: Student5 - I have several years of experience as an administrative law judge deciding property tax appeals and property tax exemption cases. We worked a great deal with real estate and land use issues because so much of our tax base depends on property classification.
AidaProfessor: Student2, You can expect 2-3 major writing assignments each semester as well as research and citation exercises. This is the norm across the country.
Student3: In your estimate, how much of an additional time commitment is the law journal?
LynProfessor: Student3, I was the editor in chief of Washburn's law journal during my third year, and I'm a member of the Law Journal Faculty Advisory Committee currently. Law Review takes a significant amount of time, but you can earn up to four credit hours for your work. It's also a terrific plum to list on your resume!
Student4: is there an upper level LARW course (or other course) that allows you to research an issue you're interested for the entire semester?
LynProfessor: Student3, Many prospective employers consider law review membership one of the best qualifications for law practice. But Moot Court is also a terrific way to hone your professional writing skills as well as oral advocacy. If you enjoy debate, you'll love Moot Court!
Student5: What is it about your legal research and writing courses that makes it so superior to other schools? I'm really excited about that ranking.
TonyaProfessor: To everyone, we wanted to let you know that LARW is probably the most fun class in the first year. We work in small sections of only about 20-24 students apiece, so we get to develop closer professional relationships. Also, the students often get to collaborate together on exercises and projects.
JeffProfessor: Student4, there are a number of seminar courses in different areas that allow you to do this. There are also a lot of opportunities for directed research where you work directly with a professor on particular topics.
Student3: What the steps for getting involved in Moot Court?
Student2: Other than the leisure book list is there anything else we could do this summer to better prepare ourselves specifically for LARW?
Student1: okay; another question, slightly off topic. I'm all in on Washburn, and am very excited about attending. Which just fuels my rage when KU bills their law library as the largest in the state. It may be the tallest, but Washburn's has more books and is clearly more awesome. So my question, if you feel qualified to answer - what's up with them?
JeffProfessor: Student3 - I can answer this one, since I advise the Moot Court program. We have a tryout in the Fall of your second year. You write a brief, and then argue it before different panels of judges. You have to be able to both write and speak well. The best performers get invited to join. In the last few years, we've cracked the top 30 in the nation three times.
LynProfessor: So are we!!! The reason is that our colleagues across the country recognize the importance our entire faculty places on excellent legal writing instruction. In particular, we are one of only about ten law schools in the country with full-time, tenured and tenure-track legal writing faculty who love teaching that course and have dedicated their teaching careers to legal writing and related skills. We have a rigorous but student-friendly program, and every single one of our faculty members in the LARW program is outstanding and loves teaching first-year law students! We have a high-profile national reputation because all of us are involved in service and scholarship in the national legal writing community, and our colleagues respect us for it.
KarlaAdmissions: Professor Lyn is currently president-elect of the Association of Legal Writing Directors.
Student3: Thank you Jeff.
AidaProfessor: Student2: I would recommend reading almost anything that is good literature. Not just magazines, for example, but some of the classics. It will help you develop and internalize good writing styles and increase your vocabulary. I always say that language is power so anything to help you learn and appreciate good writing is good.
Student2: Also are moot court and law review mostly mutually exclusive? Meaning would it be too much of a time commitment to attempt both or is it frowned upon etc.?
Student1: ah, i share Student2's question, there.
Student2: Thanks again Professor Aida!
JeffProfessor: Student1 - I think they're just jealous :) Our law library is one of the strengths of the school. The library staff is top notch and are very helpful resources for students. Our library was recently ranked in the top 40 in the nation. (KU was nowhere to be found on the list).
TonyaProfessor: Student2 and Student1, I coach in the moot court program and was on law journal at my law school. Some students do participate in both programs. Law Journal is time intensive for most of the year, while moot court tends to be intensive for only about 2-3 months, usually between January and March, which is competition season. The students who participate in both programs find that they actually get more done because their time management skills become so enhanced. If you have good time management skills and the grades are in a good spot, I would say "go for it!"
Student2: Awesome I was hoping to hear that! Thanks Professor Tonya!
TonyaProfessor: No problem!
LynProfessor: Student1, Prof. Jeff is spot-on again. Our Library Director, Professor John Christiansen, has a national reputation as one of the best! He was instrumental in establishing Washlaw, a very highly respected legal research portal. Every legal research text lists Washlaw's url as an outstanding free resource to begin legal research!
Student1: sweet; i wish we could start up school now!
Student2: What do you expect the reading load to be like in a typical week of 1L? I expect it to be high but just out of curiosity :)
TonyaProfessor: We like your enthusiasm!
JeffProfessor: I should add that the librarians are always a big help for legal writing. They are available to help students with research and finding some of the more "exotic" sources.
Student1: yeah, it's kind of weird, that enthusiasm of mine, but it's there...
TonyaProfessor: Welcome, Tori--please feel free to jump in with questions.
Student2: I tend to like extra curriculars and I am involved here at KU with student government, how do law students get involved with senate and such at Washburn?
Student6: TonyaProfessor: I know you went to law school at Duke, so how do you like living in Kansas?
LynProfessor: Student2, It's not so much the number of pages required, but rather how much time it takes to absorb and understand the material. A successful first-year law student must learn to read in a very different way than for undergrad courses -- or even other graduate programs. Law school textbooks are largely composed of primary source material -- mostly judicial opinions, statutes, and sometimes scholarly articles. It's difficult material to navigate, and often a 1L must read the assigned material several times before feeling adequately prepared for class. And many of the older judicial opinions are not very well written!
Student5: Sorry for this random question. what time do classes generally start in the morning? How late is the latest class? I'm just curious to know how it will effect my family and my role as a father.
TonyaProfessor: I enjoy it so much. In fact, one of the reasons I went to school there was that it is located in a smaller city like Topeka. It's a much easier lifestyle. And we still have big-city excitement and culture nearby in Kansas City and Lawrence.
AidaProfessor: Student2: Washburn has more extra-curricular opportunities than many law schools throughout the nation. It really is amazing how many student groups exist. I'm sure that you will have more choices than you have time for.
Student6: TonyaProfessor: Thank you!
TonyaProfessor: You are welcome!
Student2: Understandable, thanks for the info Professor Lyn!
LynProfessor: Student2, like many law schools, Washburn has a Student Bar Association. You can get involved as a representative in your very first semester if you enjoy student government!
Student3: I am interested in pursuing education law beyond just special education issues. Is there a faculty member you could recommend with an interest in that area? I'm looking for someone I can talk to about preparation and future employment options.
Student2: That is good to know, my wife isn't as stoked about all my extra curriculars but I love em! Thanks Professor Aida and Professor Lyn!
LynProfessor: Student2 -- You bet!
JeffProfessor: Student5, The earliest classes start at 8:00, and classes are over by 4:00. That's not to say that you have an 8:00 every day, but you can probably expect it one day a week. Classes are generally centered around later morning and early afternoon. Your lunch hour is always kept free for student activities and guest speakers.
JanessaAdmissions: The fall course schedule can be viewed at http://washburnlaw.edu/students/schedule/2010faschd.php
Student5: Thanks very much for all the information
AidaProfessor: Student3: I have taught higher education law and can talk to you about it. It has been taught periodically, although I no longer teach it. You could always do directed research in that area if you are interested.
LynProfessor: Student3, For several summers an adjunct professor in the Department of Education here, who also has a law degree, taught Education Law. I took the course when I was in law school here, and I found it fascinating! You might enjoy reading a U.S. Supreme Court opinion decided in 1985. The caption is New Jersey v. T.L.O. I'm sure you can find it on the internet.
Student2: Would it be advantageous or advisable to join the ABA as a student (contemplating the three year membership option for students)?
Student7: Hello just entering the chat. For any of the moderators what is the best way for us to get ready to enter law school?
AidaProfessor: Student7, The one big thing is read. There are some good ideas on the summer reading list and almost any good literature will help you get into the proper mindset.
JanessaAdmissions: Student7: The optional reading list can be viewed at http://washburnlaw.edu/admissions/admitted/index.php#leisure
Student7: Thank you I will look at the reading list.
LynProfessor: Student2, It's a great idea to join the ABA as a student member. The membership fee is nominal -- $20 or $25, and in return you receive the ABA Journal, which is a terrific publication with lots of timely articles and practice tips. Membership also qualifies you to participate in several ABA Student Competitions, including Client Counseling and Negotiation. One of my current students, Shawn Yancey, is actively involved in the ABA Student Division and currently serves as Lieutenant Governor of the Tenth Circuit region!
Student3: Professor Aida and Professor Lyn- Thank you. As of right now, I'm interested in how state and federal law affects local school districts and quality of education. Right now I feel like my interests in the area are wide and a bit unfocused. I've spent the last 10 years as a high school English teacher and am trying to find a way to merge my passion for education into my law career.
LynProfessor: Student3, You'll find Washburn to be a friendly place for you because of our emphasis on government law, which of course includes local school districts! State and local government law is a strong suit and will continue to be a strong plus for Washburn law students. Professor Robinson, who will begin next fall as the Faculty Director of the Law and Government Center, has been the President of the Kansas Board of Regents for the past eight or nine years. He will be a terrific resource for you!
KarlaAdmissions: We are about out of time for today. Are there any final questions?
Student1: not here; thanks all!
Student2: Think I got most of em! Thank you all so much for your insights today!
Student3: Thank you! Looking forward to the fall.
Student2: I second Student3's comment! Can't wait!
KarlaAdmissions: Thanks for participating. If you have any questions later, please contact Admissions and we'll get them answered.
Student6: This was great! Thank you all!!
Student1: well, see, i'm not the only enthusiastic one...
TonyaProfessor: Thank you all. I enjoyed it!
JeffProfessor: Hope to see you all in the Fall.
LynProfessor: Have a wonderful summer!
AidaProfessor: Have a wonderful summer!
Student7: Thanks for your time, I look forward to meeting you all in the fall.
Student4: Thanks! See you soon
JanessaAdmissions: This is the end of the Chat. Thank you everyone for joining us this evening. If you have additional questions, please do not hesitate to contact the Office of Admissions at (800) 927-4529 or admissions [at] washburnlaw.edu.
